Bugged
Or rabbis could just end the War on Vegetables. The basic argument why leafy vegetables are unkosher and/or require extensive cleaning is that pesticides that protected against bugs are no longer used.
Two flaws in the argument:
Flaw 1: If pesticides aren't used anymore, why is there an organic food industry?
Flaw 2: But Jews used vegetables for thousands of years without EITHER (a) lightboxes and similar aggressive measures or (b) pesticides. Thus, it cannot be the case that either lightboxes or pesticides are required to make vegetables adequately bug-free.
Something doesn't seem to hold water here- with or without veggie wash!
Woodrow, a buddy of mine had a budget-based theory regarding some of the recent bug-based kashrut rulings.
Our ancestors ate fruit, vegetables, and kosher varieties of fish for a couple thousand years (give or take a few centuries) without qualms about their kashrut. And surely New York City's allegedly-bug-filled tap water isn't any more polluted that what my grandparents drank in Eastern Europe. What changed in the last 10 years? I think Woodrow's right--there's something fishy going on here.
See also Bugged, or score another one for the rabbis, and follow the links to get a better sense of both sides of the infestation question.
posted by Shira Salamone at 5:36 PM
18 Comments:
One possible reason for disallowing eating salmon is that the chazal's explanation for why the worm-infested fish was permitted was based on incorrect biology. If we're going to let science alter halacha, it is going to do so l'chumra (barring killing lice on Shabbat) as well as l'kula (permitting mixtures of fish and meat).
Larry, I must confess to being rather amused that some of the same right-wingers who turn up their noses at the thought of a college education turn right around and make halachic decisions based on the science that they don't want their children to study. While it's true that non-Orthodox Jews are largely dependent on Orthodox Jews to provide services such as kashrut supervision, sofrut (the writing, by hand, of such sacred texts as Torah scrolls, tefillin, and mezuzot), and brit milah (ritual circumcision), it's equally true that the right-wing Orthodox community relies on the left-wing Orthodox and non-Orthodox communities for medical professionals, lawyers, accountants, scientists, and other college-educated professionals.
Thus far, the little that I've read concerning salmon is that many, if not most, rabbis who've studied the worm issue have concluded that salmon is still kosher.
Shira,
It is not entirely true that our ancestors had no qualms about the kashrut of leafy vegetables. They may not have had light boxes and bans, but they certainly CHECKED. I am Orthodox and although I disagree with many in the O community for simply giving up on certain veggies, I also don't think that the Conservative stance of not checking lettuce, etc for bugs is OK either. To not do some sort of checking of leafy veggies for bugs is both non-halachic and not kosher.
They may not have had light boxes and bans, but they certainly CHECKED.
I agree completely the shulchan aruch requires checking. But do you have any evidence that Jews actually checked?
Both my grandmothers kept kosher in the home their entire lives, but I never recall seeing them check for bugs. That isn't sufficient proof for me, as nobody would have considered them Charedi, but I'd still like to hear someone report of an Orthodox affiliated person in the 1930s - 50s who regularly checked for bugs in vegetables.
Anon, is there any anything in pre-haskalah t'shuvot (answers to questions regarding Jewish religious law) that confirms that searching for bugs and/or worms in food was a common practice? In all seriousness, what's driving this sudden mania for bug hunts? Is it science, and/or is it yet another way for the Orthodox to differentiate themselves from the rest of us?
"I'd still like to hear someone report of an Orthodox affiliated person in the 1930s - 50s who regularly checked for bugs in vegetables."
That's what I had in mind, Larry.
To the best of my admittedly-limited knowledge, the obsession with infestation is so recent that it may not even preceed the launch of my blog (Aug. 2004) by very much. Reports of bugs in New York City tap water didn't surface until 2004. Surely, the bugs had been there for a good while before then, and some have argued that they're so small as to be halachically insignifant. Why are such small creatures now considered such a big deal that there are signs on every New York City kosher restaurant announcing that their water is filtered? Why is infestation considered a big deal *now*?
Er, "insignificant."
Second error: precede. The editor is, apparently, out to lunch. :(
Shira,
It is in the Torah not to eat a bug, and it is in Shulchan Aruch that we have to check leafy vegitables for bugs. Just becuase people in the past had been lax about it doesn't eliminate the halacha.
Again, where's the written evidence that the rabbis of pre-Haskalah/"Enlightenment" times insisted on this kind of thorough search? Why are you assuming that people were lax in the past? Is it possible that they had halachic justification for their (in)action?
Shira,
Again, it is in the Shulchan Aruch.
That is about as pre-haskalah as you can get. It was written in either the 12th or 13th Century.
It has nothing to do with fear of "infestation." The halacha is the one must check leafy veggies for bugs. The new Orthodox fear of "infestation" has resulted in some Orthodox simply eliminating those veggies they think might be a problem. I disagree with this as I think it is similar to not eating meat out of some possible fear that the schechita might not have been good.
I'm not assuming that people were lax in the past, I'm basing this on what people have told me about their grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. I've heard some people talk about their grandparents, etc checking for bugs, but it is usually very frum rabbinic dynasty families. So it definately went on in the past, and it is not something that the Orthodox just "made up in the last 30 years."
Anon, I'll grant you that the Shulchan Aruch is definitely post-Talmudic and pre-Haskalah.
I'm just wondering why a practice that, as far as I can determine, seems not to have been observed by a large segment of the Orthodox community as recently as the late
20th century has recently become a virtual obsession.
"I'm just wondering why a practice that, as far as I can determine, seems not to have been observed by a large segment of the Orthodox community as recently as the late
20th century has recently become a virtual obsession"
My only guess would be sort of a "sling-shot effect" that they are trying to overcompensate for the fact that it was neglected for so long. You will also see this by the halacha regarding avoiding work after mid-day on erev pesach.
While agree with you that many of the Orthodox go overboard, I feel like the Conservative want to have it both ways: they will openly reject the mesorah (did our great-grandmother's wear talit and tefilin and daven in shuls that had no mechtizah? No.) but then they will point to their ancestor's unintentional lack of observance as proof of something being OK. I know people who said that their great-grandparent's who considered themselves observant shaved with straight razors or cooked on Shabbos. That doesn't make these things OK halachically just becuase our well-meaning ancestors didn't know the halachah.
"they will openly reject the mesorah (did our great-grandmother's wear talit and tefilin and daven in shuls that had no mechtizah? No.)"
Did they get a good formal Jewish education, either? Many did not--formal Jewish education, prior to the founding of the Bais Yaakov school "system," was reserved largely for boys. Girls learned only what their mothers and grandmothers taught them at home.
Did they study Gemarah? No. The study of Gemarah by women was almost unheard of as recently as only a few decades ago.
The mesorah (tradition) has evolved, and will continue to do so.
" then they will point to their ancestor's unintentional lack of observance as proof of something being OK. I know people who said that their great-grandparent's who considered themselves observant shaved with straight razors or cooked on Shabbos. That doesn't make these things OK halachically just becuase our well-meaning ancestors didn't know the halachah."
The more interesting question is whether a thorough search for insects and/or worms was standard procedure in the homes of the learned, and, if so, why it wasn't commonly known and/or taught to us normal mortals,
It seems to me that perhaps "checking for bugs" meant something very different in the 16th century [when the Shulchan Aruch was written] then it does in some Orthodox circles today.
There was no way to check for bugs that were visible only with light boxes and/or the kind of expertise you see on the OU's videotapes.
So my guess is that what happened was-- you washed your lettuce. You looked at it to see if there was any bugs. If you saw a bug, you washed it off or flicked it off. End of bug.
If my conjecture is right, 16th century checking for bugs was not much more stringent than today's today's "not checking"!
That was a VERY interesting one! Seriously interesting.
That was a VERY interesting one! Seriously interesting.
Thanks for sharing that. It was fun reading it. :-)
Post a Comment
<< Home